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11 Comments

  • Sean
    Sean

    September 29, 2007 at 6:30 am

    I’ve been saying the same thing for ages: that nurses need to be contract workers, rather than employees. Usually, my statements are met with uncomfortable laughter, or just a strange look. I think the idea is obvious and perfect! But, a lot of people would have to get on board. But, like you said, travel companies have been doing it for ages.

    Sean


  • Jenn
    Jenn

    September 29, 2007 at 6:49 am

    I think it’s a brilliant idea. I’ve done staff nursing, travel nursing, and agency nursing. I definitely felt more empowered doing the travel and agency nursing. And got paid nearly twice as much as a staff nurse too.


  • kmom
    kmom

    September 29, 2007 at 8:52 am

    My nervous concern is that the ones in charge of the contract nurses (those negotiating with how much the hospital would pay for our service, and how much the individual contract nurse would in turn be paid) would feel the need to make a profit for themselves/the company/the “stock holders” like so many other businesses have done.
    So there would still be the temptation to staff with fewer nurses.
    It is a fear aligned with the sometimes more experienced nurses eat instead of nurture the new ones.
    Now, Kim, I would for sure work for you. But I have encountered some pretty mean Nursing Supervisors before….
    Of course, it couldn’t be worse than what we have now!
    So, after you get done with the course work you are doing now, what about going into business management? 🙂


  • Eric
    Eric

    September 29, 2007 at 10:32 am

    The key to making it work as well as you envision is, as you state, the nurses having the equity.

    I’m not intimately familiar enough with the business of nursing, and I don’t know how much margin you can build in the services, but as the business growth slows, and you want to make MegaEmergiNurse, Inc. a larger entity, the challenge will be finding funds to grow the business without diluting the partner’s equity.

    In some businesses, where the gross margins are *very* high, you can do it on cash flow. But growth of staffing companies has usually been done with cheap credit or private equity investment. Cheap credit isn’t so bad if the debt service is reasonable and you can make the note payments while still returning decent returns to the partners. But cheap credit may not be an option.

    The *moment* you take on outside investors that aren’t the working nurses is the moment that the system breaks down, because they’re going to want a certain rate of return and the ability to sell their stake at a profit in three years.

    Toss up some notes with what the spread is between what the nurses make and what the hourly rate paid by the hospital would be, and we can make some educated guesses.

    E


  • JohnS
    JohnS

    October 1, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    Use California numbers: A beginning RN gets $40/hr base (just got this number from a recruiter in the SF Bay Area last week), 1 year experience $42, + shift and other differentials.

    Rule of thumb is, up to a point (the point used to be around $100K for office people) the overhead for an employee is 100% of base salary.

    That’d be $84/hr to meet staff costs (wages + benefits), minimum, since the prospective staff is more experienced than that.

    What’s the value to the hospital of taking all the administrative problems away?


  • dancern
    dancern

    October 1, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    Hmmm. Some agencies are already nurse-owned, but the employees are still nurses, so what really changes?

    I read really good stuff about nurses contracting services in professional practice groups and having self governance in the business plans, so that nurses operate the same ways that physicians do in medical staff organizations. Is that what you mean?

    There\’s some blogging about that, too.


  • Markie
    Markie

    October 1, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    Interesting. I’ll have to see what else is out there that’s been tried/done. I’m curious if that model would work in the real world.

    Neat idea!


  • Jo
    Jo

    October 1, 2007 at 8:35 pm

    That’s a fantastic idea! I would do it too. AND I would feel better being a Nurse, working for Nurses rather then a bunch of suits who have no idea what nursing actually entails.


  • […] thinking of nursing, Nurse Kim sees the light The cry you should hear should be “Nurses Unite!” Is the ACS wise to be spending on ads? The InsureBlog thinks that these choices are […]


  • Max
    Max

    October 2, 2007 at 9:59 am

    As someone who has been in the staffing business for 10 years, and nurse recruitment for the last 4, I wanted to see if I can add to the conversation here.

    You see this model all the time for physicians in the ER (see CEP and MedAmerica). The challenge you run up against is the same as the hospitals have. Enough qualified, motivated nurses to staff all their shifts at a rate that keeps them out of bankruptcy.

    I think that especially in California, we have seen that giving nurses more money (equity in this case) does not equate to better care. And as in any outsourcing solution, the administrative hassles don’t go away, they just get shifted onto someone else. In this case, they go to the nurse who is no longer practicing at the bedside and is now administering the nursing function including staffing.

    And the only way to make this work is to charge enough to at least break even. In the staffing world, take the base pay and add between 20 and 30 percent for benefits, taxes and SDI. For some experienced nurses at the highest pay step and with maximim benefits I have heard of as high as 40%. That is your break even. If you need to make a profit you have to mark up salaries at least 50%, and remember that is only if you are covering nurses who are actually working at the facility. Not those who are administering the program.

    I agree that nurses are eductated, dedicated professionals who are not always treated that way, but the outsourcing model probably does not get you what you are looking for.


  • Chris (CAK)
    Chris (CAK)

    October 5, 2007 at 6:26 am

    Kim, I have just found your website.
    Courtesy of Grand Rounds.
    I remember taking the coursework that forced me to ask the same questions you are now asking, during my master’s pgm.
    The people who have responded, using percentages, break-even points, equity, etc. are right-on, I believe. You would need a business plan, also mentioned by one responder. This is heady stuff.
    Staffing adequately for contingencies is a headache on any nursing unit. I have thought that one of the nursing units I have staffed was suitable for a plan like you are proposing–but not all units.
    Where I work, this alternative is in place: a “float pool” of nurses to enhance flexible staffing. It is an elaborate plan. And the nurses themselves are NOT the focus of this plan
    –adequate, safe staffing is the focus. So sometimes you get cancelled and you lose some pay. If valuing nursing is the top priority, then this is NOT the plan for you. This plan, however is a good compromise most of the time.

    To me, the ideal is an extremely small-scale operation where a small group of nurses contracts directly with a manager of a nursing unit. Or with individual patients (for home care, for example). As soon as it becomes BIG, it requires a lot more organization and it requires an administrator/organizer; tax forms; files to document competencies; faxes, phones, an office (some overhead anyway). Benefits is another huge headache born of bigness. Dealing with insurance companies, claims, explanations of benefits, etc. is huge, to me.

    If you can manage all this, then you, too, are in the “business” of medicine, and nursing has veered away from its most essential caring mission. Medicine-as-a-business is a huge distraction from caring, in my experience. Blessings upon those who can meld and merge the two goals.

    I have a neighbor who is aging. He needs some monitoring of his blood pressure, weight. Nothing big. It looks as if he needs a “private nurse” to do this minimal monitoring. I am thinking of contracting with him directly–nothing in between me and him. I have also considered contracting directly with my son’s pediatrics practice to offer to jump-start the medical home model . . . However, my job that keeps the household running is bedside nursing for the largest private employer in my state, which happens to be a huge healthcare org with 24,000 employees, 24 hospitals, etc.

    I regard your ideas as idealism, in the best sense. If anyone figures out a way to make this work, I’m in. Show me the model, and I will pass the word.

    I sometimes think that nurse’s unions have the MOST influence/power with respect to getting nurses to be recognized as professionals. Perhaps it would be a nurse’s union that could make these ideals work . . .


About Me

My name is Kim, and I'm a nurse in the San Francisco Bay area. I've been a nurse for 33 years; I graduated in 1978 with my ADN. My experience is predominately Emergency and Critical Care, and I have also worked in Psychiatry and Pediatrics. I made the decision to be a nurse back in 1966 at the age of nine...

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